Thursday, May 24, 2007
Activism, Idaho style
This is a uniquely American story:
Zach Doty is raising eyebrows by taking the Second Amendment for a walk. Doty, who turned 18 last month, has been stopped by police twice in the past month after citizens spotted him with a loaded 9mm Glock pistol in a hip holster in plain view. No citations were issued because Idaho code allows residents 18 and older to openly carry a firearm in public. To carry a concealed weapon, you must be 21 and have a permit.
The second time officers checked out Zach -- on Sunday at Poleline and Greensferry -- his 15-year-old brother, Steven, was carrying a .22-caliber rifle in a sling on his back. Again, there was no wrongdoing because teens 13 to 17, with parental permission, are allowed by Idaho law to carry a rifle.The home-schooled brothers said they intend to continue to openly carry guns in public on a regular basis for self defense -- both as a crime deterrent and to educate others that it's the public's right.
Post Falls Police Chief Cliff Hayes said his agency is still adapting to the teens carrying guns. "Zach is exercising a right given under law to a greater degree than other people have in my 20-plus year history here," he said. He said officers will continue to respond to calls to verify it is the Dotys and he encourages the public not to assume that it is them. "We have always stopped people walking with guns in Post Falls," he said. "We check them out and see why. If he was older we would not be stopping him (repeatedly), but he looks young and all of the patrol does not know him yet."
Officers have been given Zach's picture so they can become familiar with him. Hayes said Zach did not notify police he was going to openly carry, so reports of the teens walking with guns caught the agency by surprise. Zach did not have identification on him to verify he was 18 during Sunday's stop, but his mother responded with a medical card for verification. "In the future, when the public calls, patrol will drive by and if it is Zach, they will just clear the call without contact," Hayes said. "We'll leave him alone unless a law is being broken."Hayes said he has met with Zach and Jude to explain some of the public's concern and that many people don't know about the open carry law. "This is going to alarm some residents, but it is still current law," he said. "Most of the public does not understand that this is legal."
I wonder if this sort of thing will catch on, or cause such hysteria that the laws will be changed.
(h/t Survivalblog) (corrected)
18 Comments:
By 
, at
Thu May 24, 10:36:00 AM:
Post Falls, Idaho, according my quick Google search, has a population in 2005 of just over 23000 people. Thus, it seems a bit disingenuous to assert that these young men are not known to the police.
The fact is, cops hate it that ordinary people can carry a rod.
Good for them. I hope it catches on, and a lot of kids and adults start packin'. The fact is that it is a deterrent to crime.
Now, if they start horning in on the seats at the local crispy creme, it'll hit a head and make the national news.
JT
By , at
Thu May 24, 11:42:00 AM:
I find it completely possible, indeed overwhelmingly likely, that the police in a town of 23,000 do not know every single resident, and I think that this town's police seem to be handling this situation excellently, at least from what I can tell
By 
Miss Ladybug, at
Thu May 24, 12:19:00 PM:
I believe Texas also has an open carry law, as well, but I've never seen anyone take advantage of it by doing so. I think I've heard people say it wouldn't be worth the hassle. Might be a little different in a smaller town, though...
By , at
Thu May 24, 01:03:00 PM:
Anon ... oh, please say it ain't so. 23000 is a small town, particularly when you winnow down the population to a relatively short list of people by demographics and stuff. After the first hysteria about someone actually carrying a piece, they become known quantities. And let's face it... Idaho is a seperatist leaning state, and fairly Western. Guns are not out of the ordinary.
The police should focus on crime prevention, and track down known scum. My town was smaller than 23000, but the cops were locals, and they knew the residents.
The cops also knew who was dealing/using drugs, beating their wife, and generally up to no good. The fact that they didn't do anything about it is a different discussion.
JT
By , at
Thu May 24, 02:00:00 PM:
23,000 is a large town in most of rural America. In NW Conecticut where I live, most of the towns have populations between 2,500-6,000. There is a big jump between the town with 10,000 and the next one, with 20,000. Our biggest city Torrington has 35,000 residents and is designated a micropolis by the US census, the largest such, in fact, in the country.
Folks don't know their neighbors anymore in towns with more than 3,500 because the demographics here are changing, but there was always a great deal of anonymity in the towns over 20,000.
By , at
Thu May 24, 02:55:00 PM:
l live in Post Falls and have watched this story with a great deal of interest. The local police certainly didn't know the Doty's before this started. They seem to be a well regarded family with little or no contact with law enforcement. As it states in the article, the police are working to recognize the Doty's without having to stop and question them. It seems to me that everyone is behaving pretty well. The problem is that citizens call in and the police cannot simply assume that it is the Doty's (again), so they must check out every call. I agree with TigerHawk, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
By Fellow American, at
Thu May 24, 05:12:00 PM:
That's just cool. It's disappointing, but not surprising, to hear that "Most of the public does not understand that this is legal." That home-schooling family is performing a public service by educating residents on the meaning of "The right to keep and bear arms". Kudos to them.
By Final Historian, at
Thu May 24, 05:53:00 PM:
Israel also allows considerable open carry, if I remember correctly.
By , at
Thu May 24, 06:27:00 PM:
A lot of this seems like something of a play for attention by the kids, as well. They may really be trying to educate people on the right to open carry, but is that a right we really want or need? As a matter of law, the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee an unlimited right to openly carry weapons. Whether it should or not is a debate for another time, but a lot of very reasonable and intelligent people are of the opinion that no such right should be Constitutionally guaranteed. Of course, if Idaho wants to take a more liberal approach to firearms rights and give its citizens the ability to openly carry firearms, it can (and apparently does). But being opposed to this law is not the same as being opposed to the 2nd Amendment. And I personally think this law is stupid. There's no good reason why that kid should carry around a .22 rifle on his back. He won't be able to use a rifle in any reasonably probable situation. It's just something that will scare people and with good reason, because a loaded gun is a safety hazard. I tend to think that risk is outweighed by the self-protection advantages in the case of concealed carry, but not with an openly-carried .22 rifle. To be honest, this all smacks of a childish stunt to me. I applaud their intentions, but they seem misplaced to me.
By keathmilligan, at
Thu May 24, 08:40:00 PM:
I do not believe it is legal to openly carry a handgun in Texas with or without a CHL except in your car (and it must be concealed).
The state legislature recently sent a bill to the governor that clarifies the legality of the 'travel' provision.
By , at
Fri May 25, 12:43:00 AM:
Shows what happens when kids are home schooled as compaired to those who go to these public schools controled by the NEA they do know what the 2nd amendment and are not tuaght this SAVE THE RAINFORESTS crap ABOLISH THE DEPT OF EDUCATION AND RETURN TO HOME SCHOOLING
By , at
Fri May 25, 08:43:00 AM:
Anonymous 6:27 -
And a lot of reasonable and intelligent people are of the opinion that the right to openly carry weapons should be Constitutionally guaranteed. These kids are educating their town (and apparently now a much wider area) about their rights and the law. Based on my close calls here in Tulsa, I would prefer a loaded rifle to a woman driver talking on her cell phone while racing out of a parking lot in her King Kong SUV.
When the Declaration of Independence says "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness", does anyone argue that the right to Life is a collective right? That MY right to the pursuit of Happiness is a collective right? That would be absurd. With or without the Constitution, does my right to bear arms require a militia? What about someone living out in the wilds 1,000 years ago? Did they not have a right to bear arms to protect themselves? Life is dangerous. If a responsible 15 yr old (and lets not talk about the infantilization of our adolescents) gives you the vapors, take a Valium and go lie down.
By Purple Avenger, at
Fri May 25, 09:31:00 AM:
The blood soaked post-apocalyptic Thunderdome of Vermont allows open and concealed carry. Neither require a permit for residents or out of state visitors.
By , at
Fri May 25, 10:04:00 AM:
just had an argument with a leftie co-worker about this article... his response "those guys are sickos" ... "if my kids went to that elementary school i would put a bullet in them myself"...
but for some reason we are supposed to fear the rational citizens that obey the laws huh?
By , at
Fri May 25, 12:08:00 PM:
Jack Okie, when I said reasonable people, I should have been more specific. I was really referring to legal scholars and judges. I believe there is pretty much a consensus among them that the 2nd Amendment was not intended to be an absolute right. To be sure, I'm not advocating the collective rights position. I do not believe that the 2nd Amendment applies only to militias today, and I don't think it should. The right to keep and bear arms is a very imporant right, but it is not absolute (after all, even the right to free speech isn't absolute). I think that disallowing open carry of firearms is a reasonable restriction, especially in the case of minors carrying rifles around public places (which seems expressly designed to stir up trouble). I just don't think we really get much benefit at all from open carry and it definitely causes a lot of confusion and apprehension that could have tragic consequences. Concealed carry is a completely different issue, and I support reducing the restrictions thereon. In fact, I think Vermont's position on that is actually much closer to ideal than any other states. I hope that clears up my position and argument a little, both of which I admit are not exactly transparent.
By Dawnfire82, at
Fri May 25, 04:46:00 PM:
"I just don't think we really get much benefit at all from open carry and it definitely causes a lot of confusion and apprehension that could have tragic consequences."
It could also dissuade criminals who see the local populace openly packing.
Encouraging the practice of concealed carry, where people can sit down in a restaurant with a loaded weapon and no one would know, but discouraging open carry where everyone can see that so-and-so is armed and what they are armed with seems like a contradiction.
Is ignorance bliss? 'Carry your guns so long as you don't scare me'?
When did we become such an incredible nation of pansies?
By , at
Mon May 28, 04:19:00 PM:
More of the dumb down kids know more about crap like THE SIMPSONS then they do about the U.S. Constitution but that the way the left wants it BAN THE SIMPSONS
By , at
Mon May 28, 04:20:00 PM:
Arizona allows open carry, and I met - and thanked - a fellow carrying a Glock in a pizza joint where we were eating.
As for the kids-with-.22s snit, we used to take our .22s out to go hunting and no one worried about it. I used to load my .30-06 across my back and bicycle to areas where I could hunt deer. This post is about how successful the media meme on guns has been in the last 30 - 40 years.
